Seychelles Shark Attack!
Tuesday, August 2nd, 2011
A French tourist diving in the Seychelles died after a possible shark attack, officials said Tuesday.
The 36-year-old had been deep-sea diving in Anse Lazio in the arichipelago’s Praslin isle on Monday, police spokesman Jean Toussaint told Agencies.
“Other tourists on the beach tried to help him, but he died as his injuries were serious,” Toussaint said, adding: “The injuries looked like a shark bite.” An autopsy was to be conducted Tuesday to determine the exact cause of death.
[source]
It is sad to hear about the news but I find it hard to believe it as a shark bite. I have been diving frequently in those waters. Encounters with sharks are frequent especially night diving but no threat at ALL. Likewise where people say the sharks are more agreasive, in the Amirantes, since there has not been any shark bite incident for years I find it one of the safest diving place in the world. If I can recall there was one boy fishing waist deep off Anse Royale beach early in the 1966 or 1967, the name was I think Frankie Meme, he was attacked round the waist area but managed to escape and survived the attack and since no other incidents. If I was the authorities I would once again consider lifting the ban on shark fishing. The shark fishing was always there and the stock was never depleted. I do hope someone reads my views. Thanks.
There are Oceanic sharks in seychelles, along with Tiger and great white (much rarer though), so well…there is a risk…
And there will be more and more risk until we slow down the over-fishing
Great whites are VERY rare and tiger sharks likewise are two species not commomly found around the coastline, from my Seychellois perspective point of view. I do not think we are overfishing, what we should try and do is to educate the newly fledged industry of shark divers not to feed those sharks. on doing sothose sharks remain in the area and become prowlers. Try and see for yourself on YouTube the way they tackle those sharks. I am not a fishing expert but I know much about the Seychelles waters and its contents and I ensure that they are undisturbed. Oh by the way the gentleman who was bit at Anse Royale was Teddy and not Frankie Meme.
Local man said to me that sharks are everywere all around the islands. Local guys on the boats are always along the beach Anse Lacio to give sharks some food to make the sharks don’t come close to the beach.
Sharks, animals and humans are the same. You start feeding them with free meals and you will see them at the same spot all the time. If there are sharks everywhere then why only one attack during those years.People feeding sharks in Seychelles are mostly tourists and divers, we Seychellois, we fish and EAT them like you see on the marketplace daily. Please do not worry to swim in Seychelles, it is the safest place in the world. PLEASE let us not make this incident a big issue and scare the tourists away as this site does, remember our economy depends on tourism. Thanks once again.
As for as “only one attack during those years” – this is hardly to beleive.Most likely
you do not make such “incidents a big issue”.
It is a pity that you think only about your economy but not about human life.
Probably human life costs nothing in Seychelles.
CR. We are going too far and away from the issue.
Continue to swim freely in Seychelles and instruct your friends likewise and please do not feed and aggreviate our sharks. Thanks and welcome to our shores.
Allen
Allen, surely you cannot fault people for calling a shark attack a shark attack. Res ipsa loquitur.
Sharks like the oceanic whitetip have occasion to eat people as a tertiary food source. Like Tiger sharks, they are highly nomadic and could easily wind up in the Seychelles. An oceanic whitetip was caught off Scandanavia even.
So please spare us the “it isn’t possible” tourism card.
“That just happened.” – Ricky Bobbi
Ricky Bobbi, you know our sharks well enough and you yourself should be a proud seychellois to try and promote tourist to our shores, not ward them off to other shores with more danger of shark atacks. I might have the occassion, if health permits me, when I return back to Seychelles to invite you for some good dives with infested sharks, maybe a night dive would be more pleasant. Until the next time I will sign off- Osio Sotto, Bergamo, Italia.
You’re right, let’s forget the Seychelles and reflect upon the experience of floating aimlessly and vulnerably in the deepest, most vast part of the Coral sea or beyond the gripping South Australian coastline, as water rages up the shoreline like buildings set alight.
Unlike the senseless works of men, the most gripping hold is the pull of the White shark. Who can adequately explain or tell of the sheer power of the shark, after dark she was swimming alone by the kelp beds near my native city, young and pretty but bled out like an abandoned ride.
The tides of South Africa seem not notably different from anywhere else, I wonder if the breaching displayed by the White sharks in pursuit of prey is not a way to convey inclusive fitness to prospective suitors in the midst, the gist of their business to attack and consume indiscriminately.
Unfortunately for someone at Fish Hoek, no joke, devoured in far less than an hour but rather I gather from what time would allow.
Natural Selection imbued the White shark with one of the most cunning and adaptable traits, an art that Crocodiles might actually cry with envy, so handy and clever is the skill to instill a decided sense of lethargy, the true Lamnidae blood a mystery to unwary prey.
I say: the White shark has to be at the top of the list for fastest fish, one wish I had was to just “observe” the White shark that veritably came up and removed the tuna bait so fast it was too late in a mere second the White shark had come and gone.
And so I began a song to enchant them, by banging a metal bolt to jolt that primal signal of distress, my guess is that the less dominant sharks excluded from the tuna bait feeding event might present themselves as suitors for this increasingly distress series of calls, my balls began to to quiver because look who’s coming to dinner, pussy cat, it’s a submarine not thinner and this one looks far more menacing than those taking free tuna unapologetically above.
My love for family, the gods and nation came to mind. The shark zeroed in on the beacon- the sound and glided towards the cage to gaze upon my present state.
“I’ll wait,” I read in his eyes, no black eyed doll at all, that chap from Jaws had never been underwater and looked into them and deeper still, that intimacy and immediacy led me to forever believe that “mistaken identity” is a lie because of my own eyes, Mav.
I realized that this creature- this rogue in the river of Time- now was ready to decide if he could even get me.
Guys,ocean will be ocean and every time we enter it there’s a risk of shark attack. Yes,they are much more seldom than car accidents and even flash strike,but the fear of being eaten alive devalues any statistical arguments. However time cures. In a few months nobody would remember this incident and idyllic beaches of Seychelles will be full of tourists again… I am really sorry about the poor chap who turned to be in wrong place in wrong time. Let him rest in peace…..
I aren’t sure, I’ve read a couple of things about this and it worries me that the ‘officals, authorities’ say such things as ‘ possible propeller accident’, he was ‘scuba diving’, which suggests he may have been spear fishing, which by definition is dangerous wherever there are sharks.
I understand the need for tourism, but I don’t believe for one second that this is an isolated instance in these waters. I beleive there has probably been many more attacks , but have mostly likely been filed under ‘ propeller accident’, ‘ boating accident’,'diving accident’.
The reality is that a young bloke was attacked and bitten by what appears to be a large shark, judging by the extent of the fatal injuries, if theres one large shark, then theres bound to be more, simple as.
I do maintain, that regardless of where you are, who you are, if you enter the oceans, you are entering the domain of animals that can, and do, kill and eat people, its not rocket science.
Do a search, I found this article, theres many more on the internet.
Firstly for the Whale Sharks, get to a place called Capucin Bay at the southern tip of the island near Police Point, Police bay, whales sharks have been spotted and swam with in that area for years and a lot of research and tagging goes on in that area too.
This is the tropics and the Indian Ocean is well know for its large predators like sharks though you shouldnt encounter big sharks close to shore depending where you are you can get caught out like a friend of mine did a few years back while swimming at Intendance beach, big waves and no coral barrier so these big sharks can come close to the beach, very close.
Mako, Tiger, Blue, Thresher, Bull Shark, ocasional White shark are all visitors.
Smaller sharks, black and white tips can be openly seen from the beach if you know where to look.
Last year i was at Cote Dor beach on Praslin just after dark and a large pack of white tips came gliding in chasing bait fish – also Beau Vallon is a good place to see them.
We have a place just to the left of Beau Vallon Bay on Mahe and we see sharks from the rocks daily, as well as dolphin, barras, sailfish etc – so they are out there!
Shark attacks – Yes ! Officially the Seychelles government and tourist board will only verify one recent fatal attack of a Seychellois fisherman in between Beau vallon and Silouette Island – they couldnt cover that up because he was local and well known
Because the government dont want to scare people away they tend not to broadcast other non fatal attacks, but i have personally known of at least 3 other attacks over a space of about 2 years and a few encounters while swimming – i can tell you this from personal experience!
I dont want to sound like a scare munger but i guess i am just telling you to be wary, use your common sense, be safe and have a stunning experience.
Its been almost 2 weeks since the incident happened. Did authorities give any feedback on the cause of death? Or it still unclear wether it was boat accident or shark attack?
It certainly seems to make the events surrounding this particulary all the more sinister given that this has been so efficiently ‘covered up’, theres hardly been any news of it , it certainly makes you wonder regarding previous shark attacks that may have been ‘covered up’. Conspicuous by absence, as they say.
Let’s just be honest.
Every SINGLE municipality, nation and/or destination would like to ascribe any shark attack to another cause. Even when undisputed, they rarely concede that the shark attack was unprovoked, e.g., Mexican authorities “blamed” the woman recently mauled in a classic example.
But what of it?
That’s nothing new.
If anything, we should expect the less developed economies to make such tales up because they do not know of such “mistaken identity” theories- such extravagances only exist in the minds of those needing a cause.
Tourism is a more important cause.
“Jaws? No, that was a propeller.”
I think you have a point drudown, but I personally don’t have a clue what ‘unprovoked’ means, to me its a made up word by so called ‘experts’ attempting to belittle and demean the ‘laymans’ point of view. The simple reality is that if a person gets into the water where there are animals that can kill, and eat you, then you’ve already ‘provoked’ it, which, by definition renders the word ‘unprovoked’ as non existant.
‘Unprovoked’ is the latest ‘buzzword’ used by ‘experts’ to try and justify something that is completely natural. Simple as.
Using the word ‘unprovoked’ is an attempt to try and make a particuar shark attack sound like an isolated, very unusual incident. If you read most reports of shark attacks they always seem to throw the word ‘unprovoked’ in somewhere.
They come up with such classics as ‘ its so unusual to see these sharks at this time of the year so close to shore’,,,, what rubbish, its the ocean and sharks go where they can find food, this is what millions of years of evolution does. People are remarkably stupid, especially experts, but the worst thing is, they like to think everybody else is stupid too.
I’m back after reading some reviews:-
Stockings- Anse Capucins is one of the safest place for dives especially night dives. I can assure you as I spend a lot of time there. The land belongs to us,this is why I can assure this but again the ocean does not belong to us.
Drudown- It is true that we are all awaiting the results of the postmortem so I ask upon the Seychelles Authorities to do so and be open to us all. It is very important to have the news on the attack and what steps are they doing to rid of the sharks if any!!
Seamed- It is true that sharks will migrate anytime where they find food. Worst of all are those who stays in the area any time of the year as they are being fed daily by enthusiasts. I implore them to stop feeding those sharks otherwise there will be more attacks to follow.
To my fishermen friends keep fishing them.
Thanks for the space.
i think you all wrong there been another shark attack hours ago same place
Unfortunately this afternoon a young male British citizen lost his life in an other attack off the same beach.
Maybe, just maybe someone in authority will now see it necessary to take this matter seriously and hunt down the predator and hopefully save us from further embarrassment.
Allen – Wake up and sniff the roses, , Read the last two comments by James and Avid.
You see, the difference is, if in the UK somebody reported a shark sighting, tourists would flood from all over the country to see, its called a ‘tourist attraction’. Now, when the opposite happens, when clearly incidents are happening, and theres no news forthcoming, its an obvious cover up.
Think also, Avid, its a poor mentality to hunt creatures down and kill them for doing what is natural to them. The shark didnt come out of the water and mug the bloke, he went into the water, think about it , it warrants a bit of serious consideration rather than ignorance.
What the hell is this site?
Purported “experts” like to use the term “unprovoked” to condition people to believe that many attacks are, in fact, provoked. Nonsense.
Sharks attack and consume people when metabolic need directs the shark to do so, e.g., during or after a lengthy pan-Pacific migration.
Mark my words: as humans continue to rapidly deplete ocean fish stocks, more shark attacks on humans will follow- much like those recent Coeanic Whitetip attacks in Egypt.
Oops! Looks like have problem now!!!!!
Deerr ne de de deerr ne de de denedeerrrr!
Allen, now what? Still safe to swim??? You first!
“Please do not worry to swim in Seychelles, it is the safest place in the world” – Allen’s Quote
Don’t you think that sometimes you should verify the facts before offering advise?!
Allen.sorry mate,but the second incident a in a row ruines your theory of spontaneous “hit and run” attck.I wonder what other reason authorities would find this time (return of killer-propeller?) It looks like one and the same shark terrorize the island similar to last year story in Sharm el Sheikh (Egypt). Those days it was oceanic white tip
Guys,do not attack Allen – I believe Secychelles is still a safe place. It deals with a one-off problem. Trust me in a month or two no one remember…..
Except the people who have lost loved ones. Boris that is a cold hearted and stupid veiwpoint.
Deal with the problem animal first and then maybe advise people to get back in the water.
It seems to me that all you and Allen are interested in is protecting your tourism industry.
i wonder if any of yiour views will now change given the recent incident another fatality at the same beach bearing in mind 20 shark attacks in the world in 2010!!
I am amazed regarding the stupid comments by those who are blatantly telling lies for reasons known to them only. I hate sharks because a Great White killed my uncle who was a vey lovely person. Although it was a long time ago in Malta it never the less did happen. The Navy used to shoot any shark on site up until a do gooder for the sharks that is persuaded the Athorities (probably tourist
orientated) to desist in shooting the sharks.
What crap when whoever says that the sea is the sharks domain it might be the sharks domain by hell we came out of the sea did’nt we? and I feel we have as much right as any other thing that lives to feel safe while we are in the sea – hook or by crook.
To Doudiedanger . Did you read the Allen’s post:”Sharks, animals and humans are the same. we fish and EAT them like you see on the marketplace daily. Please do not worry to swim in Seychelles, it is the safest place in the world. PLEASE let us not make this incident a big issue and scare the tourists away as this site does, remember our economy depends on tourism. Thanks once again.”
Allen, people and sharks are not the same.We are not fishes. But for you we are the samething. Does it mean that people’s life=sharks’ life.Yes, these lives are equivalent for ALLEN from the commercial point of view. REMEMBER Their economy depends on tourism and fishing.
To Boris and Allen. “Guys,do not attack Allen – I believe Secychelles is still a safe place. It deals with a one-off problem. Trust me in a month or two no one remember…..” No one remember about what? About Seychelles I hope. As for me I will never come here again. Not because of sharks. Ocean is ocean. Sharks are sharks. Because of your cynicism(if you know what it means)No one remember… I will always remember as the Frenchman shouted from pain when the shark attacked him.
To all. I know the waters of the Seychelles quite well. I lived there for 6 years as a kid and have been back at regular intervals since then, last time last X-mas when we (my wife and three boys) swam and snorkeled on a daily basis on the very spot where the attacks took place. As a kid I used to snorkel there almost every wek end. The fact is that these incidents must not be covered up and brushed aside. The news are out and all with an interest in the Seychelles already know. Instead concrete efforts ought to be made to find out facts. What kind of shark was it? To what extent have sharks been spotted in the area? Does the dumping of rubbish from yachts attract the shark(s)? Is the spotting of sharks a seasonal phenomenon (North West vs South East)?
I am going back to Seychelles this x-mas with my kids, and although it is ‘safe’ to swim (according to tourism propaganda) I am not prepared to take risks with my kids without knowing what those risks are. I therefore urge authorities to take these tragic incidents seriously and to conduct an objective investigation. This may also mean giving recommendations such as advising people not to swim on these unprotected beaches (such as Anse Lazio and Anse Georgette) during seasons when the particular species of shark (what species was it?) may be around. Facts not cover-ups can arm us with information to avoid disasters. And do NOT kill off all sharks indiscriminately. That would be double tragedy!
Mats
Mats, a very good comment. We are certainly not advocating for all tourists to turn their backs on the Seychelles, but rather that the locals make sure they are properly informed and that if that means advising against swimming then to do just that. Surely the Seychelles have more than just the ocean to offer??
CR, is totally right, insensitive comments and garbage posted by Boris and Allen(who I presume are locals)will have a greater effect on chasing potential tourists away than the shark attacks.
Doudidanger, do not judge them too harshly. It really has been imprinted in all Seychellois minds that attacks just don’t happen there. I think people just refuse to believe it, ie that Paradise has been raped. Truly tragic, but I think they must start facing the facts. It is also uncanny that a similar situation occurred in Egypt. Perhaps the altered behaviour of sharks in these traditionally ‘safe’ areas is a result of environmental disturbances such as over fishing and altered sea currents/temperatures. I do hope it is a one off, but that does not help the victims. Tragic! I myself find it hard to really believe it, but facing facts is necessary. I hope that the ‘shark expert’ sent for from South Africa (last news) can solve some of the question marks.
Mats
Unfortunately the Seychelles ARE overfishing Sharks. I have been working there as a marine biologist there for some years and our research showed this. Also because of the strategic location it is the place where a massive Tuna fleet is stationed here, which use miles big nets to catch the tuna. The side catch is massive in these things. Just go to Victoria port and you can see these floating factories. There is a good reason why SFA, (Seychelles Fishing Authorities) have aquired a new vessel to control the waters. Otherwise go to the fish market in Victoria on a morning or at the roundabound at Eden development where local fisherman sell their catch. Proof is all there, every day again. Since the bigger sharks are less the locals are catching the pups before they are even a year old and had any time to reproduce.
The real problem though is the mangroves, which are the nursing grounds for not only the shark’s but also most other species are been sold of to the hotel’s, which drain them and effectively destroy them. These hotels are mostly owned by big international (Arab) companies who are just there for the money and it seems they are trying to take over the country.
I don’t think that the locals should stop fishing, but don’t say they don’t. It is the hotel development and the big Tuna fleet which is causing the problem, not the local fisherman which catch a couple of fish.
On a Side note: The territorial waters of the Sechelles are so big that most of it is never visited by any one and is therefore a safe haven for a lot of species. It is just a real shame to see the places where people are living to be under such a stress.
The worst experience I had with the destroying of marine habitats and active Shark fishing industrie was in the United Arab Emirates. There in the harbours you will find thousands of Shark’s been sold every day. And Coral reefs been destroyed over hundreds of miles because of the need for oil and gas tanker terminals. In the space of a year we lost 99% of all coral’s and thousands of tons of dead fish started washing up on the shores after a other “minor” oil spil. A other side effect of building the palm islands there is the run off of nutrients into the ocean, which causes a HAB (Harmfull Algea Bloom)
If you want to enjoy the miracles of the ocean, do it now. And yes, The Seychelles is the most beautifull place I lived so far.
I’ve just come back from a honeymoon in Seychelles and Praslin. I still cant believe that this has been allowed to happen. The SECOND shark attack could have been prevented if the authorities had acted more sensibly and learnt from other similar incidents (Egypt recently).
The issue is that as a tourist, everyone you speak to regarding your holiday (agents, hotels, locals) has a vested interest in promoting tourism. We checked into our hotel (one of the top ones in Praslin) and immediately were marketed by our travel agent a yatch trip around Praslin to visit Islands, which ended at Anse Lazio for snorkelling. The agent, a local, left out the fact that there had been a shark attack in the last week in the very same beach. On the boat, we asked about sharks to the crew, and they told us about the shark attack as if it was a minor incident, leaving out the fact that it was fatal!! Then, when we arrived at Anse Lazio, the crew changed their minds about snorkelling there due to the “high tide” (!!) and took us to La Reserve to snorkel, which is a few miles away (enough for a shark to swim to). L We swam there in deep sea without seeing many fishes. The boat owner threw pieces of bread into the sea to attract the fish for snorkellers!!! Lots of people went snorkelling without knowing about the attack and even on Anse Lazio, there was no sign on the beach about the incident and people were swimming cluelessly.
We only found out about the gravity of the first attack after we reached our hotel and googled the news! After that, we didnt swim in the deep sea and checked every night the news as we were scared that there would be another attack (just like in Egypt). We arrived back in London yesterday and couldnt believe the news this morning. This could have been prevented
in my opinion, if the authorities had taken measures to warn tourists. In general, we found the local boat operators very callous regarding safety even while swimming – there are strong currents at this time of the year and life jackets are not provided for snorkelling.
Promoting tourism is one thing, disregarding safety and hushing up real dangers is criminal. I wouldnt recommend anyone (let alone with kids) to go back there right now.
To CR. Not coming back to Seychelles is your private business. I can also suggest you never come back to New York because of September 11,2001,Thailand because of 2004 tsunami and never use planes (need an example?)
I am leaving without comment your attempt to accuse me of cinicism.Just believe me,I am not.My heart is breaking of sympathy to poor guys and their families.
But please understand, peoples’ memories are selective (luckiely!)and we tend to instictively forget bad things. I honestly hope it will happpen to you and in a while you’ll be able to come back to to Seychelles and swim in its waters.
R_S Closing beaches (I believe that’s what you mean by autorities’ preventive measures) could hardly serve as a remedy to prevent attacks. Just remember the Egypt story you refer to – beaches were closed for a week then authorities proudly displayed few killed sharks,opened the beaches and…..that very day German lady was killed.
I think the culprit of those attacks is a tiger or a bull shark (great whites are possible,but unlikely in these waters).I think the authorities need to patrol checking for those large species……
Boris. I think that closing beaches is no guarantee to prevent incidents but the point is that informing people of dangers is the only responsible way forward and will prevent angry visitors (as R_S above). Statistically you are of course more likely to get injured when driving drunk in the Seychelles than when going swimming, but if you do drive drunk you can’t claim you were unaware of the danger. If yacht crew fail to inform their clients about a fatal incident that happened only a week or so prior (according to R_S account) you cannot blame him for being upset. Truth and openness must be the only viable long term strategy here. I have all the confidence in the world that Seychelles will manage and pull through, it is after all one of the most beautiful places in the world, but covering things up is not a way forward. I for one will NOT be cancelling my trip, but I will be super vigilant and think twice before I take my kids snorkelling at Anse Lazio/Anse Georgette. Patrols checking the waters may well be a way forward. Shark nets? Still, neither of these measures are fool proof and people need to understand this.
Personally I have seen many sharks on Anse Georgette, mainly sand sharks, but in the future I will not be as quick to jump into the water (when others are jumping out) to see the shark ‘live’. I will make sure I know what type of shark it is first.
Mats
I have spend over 2000 hours underwater, often in shark infested waters worldwide and never had a treatening experience.
Sharks are not dangerous, we are. The most dangerouse animal by far:
The Mosquito
Yes, mosquito is number one on the list of most dangerous animals causing over 2 million deaths every year!
even Jellyfish are the cause of over 100 deaths each year
Scientists investigated 115 alleged incidents of struggles between humans and sharks worldwide in 2010. They confirmed that 79 of these were unprovoked shark attacks on live humans. Most people got away alive to tell the tale.
In comparison, 100 million sharks are killed every year by humans.
When you enter the sea, remember that it’s not like going into a pool — this is a wilderness experience. It’s the equivalent of taking a trek in the Outback or the Amazon or the Serengeti. You’re entering a world we’re not very well-equipped for. Still, we get away with bumbling around in there fairly readily.
Best advise:
Remember the ocean is a wild environment, not an expansive swimming pool.
I would recommend anybody to go to the Seychelles, or to experience the underwater environment anywhere else. As stated before, If you want to experience the beauty of the oceans do it now while it is there. It will also make people more aware of what we are destroying and maybe alter their lifestyle a bit.
Well said JD. With a background in Marine Biology too, I couldn’t agree more. The real tragedy is the mass extinction of these wonderful animals. It is however the case that this type of incident conjures strong feelings of horror. Personally so because I have spent 1000 nds of hours on this very beach and I just picture my kids in the tragic situation that the two experienced. I know this is illogical and by the same logic I would never have paid for my oldest son’s driving license. There are, as you point out, many animals/situations that are far more dangerous than sharks, and knowledge of the dangers certainly diminishes the risks. Let’s hope people are informed with real facts and that these incidents don’t lead to mass hysteria.
I agree with the a logic as well, After the attack a few weeks ago when we were diving at Pointe Caiman just of Curieuse, I was also aware of a rogue shark in the area, but if your neighbour has a aggressive dog, you also know to keep an eye out for it. It is a shame a Shark does not bark. The pour fish is probably hungry because we “stole” all its Tuna.
TO R_S
“Promoting tourism is one thing, disregarding safety and hushing up real dangers is criminal.”
One man said many years ago: “Provide to the capital of 10 % of profit, and the capital agrees any application, at 20 % it becomes recovered, at 50 % is positively ready to break to itself a head, at 100 % it tramples on all human laws, at 300 % there is no such crime on which he wouldn’t risk”
To CR, I understand your analogy. But it is not all about the money, Yes the Seychelles is reliant on tourism, and there is a shark there which lost the plot(in our view). But see it in perspective. The Seychelles are huge and maybe swimming at Anse Lazio right now is not the best idea, I will not, But that leaves so many other places. What I in general found is that if you are not sure if the waters are dangerous, ask/look if the locals are swimming there.
I am happy to dive at Curieuse, just a mile away, where it probably also senses me. And there are many other places where you can swim and dive. To make a good judgement first it has to be established what kind of shark it was and then what kind of behaviour it relates to. And what is going on in that area. I am not aware of any shark feeding there.
Interesting discussion.
I am aware that shark attacks are rare, but as someone with young boys looking for somewhere to go at Christmas, the Seychelles is now firmly off the list.
And I won’t be the only one.
to Jafarcakes, I understand, but where are you going then, there is hardly a place in the world where I can not think of any dangers. Ever heard of Irukandji jellyfish, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irukandji_jellyfish
Or more likely, you are not considering driving to your holiday destination I hope……..
If you are looking for a other place in the world to go to, probably my favorite, amazing people, beautifull, etc etc. Check out Playa del Carmen, Mexico. But do not google for dangerous beasties in that area.
Just been scanning the net and there seem to be indications that the shark in question was a bull shark which sort of makes sense:
1. It is a coastal shark occasionally found in the Seychelles
2. It is a shark which seems to prefer estuary brackish water (even goes up rivers and lives there for longer periods)
3. It normally mates in early Autumn in coastal areas close to rivers.
There are a couple of rivers that run into the sea at Anse Lazio and given the fact that the shark is highly territorial aggressively defending its territory (especially during the mating season), it may well be that a bull shark has strayed into the bay and is establishing a territory. Who knows, there may even be a pair. Has anyone heard any more news on the species side? My sources are not entirely reliable.
I have seen bullsharks in the Seychelles, but they are very rare here, they are not suppose to be here. If it is it explains it a bit. They normally feed during dusk and dawn and like Mats said:
the shark is highly territorial aggressively defending its territory (especially during the mating season), it may well be that a bull shark has strayed into the bay and is establishing a territory.
They are the number one regarding attacks since they also swim upriver as far as Illinois in the Mississippi River and are therefore close to humans. No animal on earth has the testosterone levels of a bull shark, and that includes animals like the big cats of Africa, elephants, and grizzly bears.
But I have encountered many of them and in general they are inquisitive but dosile
What type of shark are they saying did this? What type do you think?
Being an islander, the sea being a part of me, understanding the importance of its resources and also the dangers some of its denizens represent to us human beings, I somehow fail to understand Stocking’s view of a poor mentality in self preservation.
We need to make our surroundings safe so that we can enjoy a troublesome existence, without which we’ll forever be seeking pastures green for survival. However, we also need to have mutual respect for all beings, small or great, to be in complete harmony with nature.
This is my call for our authorities to mobilise and rid itself of a serious threat to our community and the well-being of our nation.
Avid, it’s not that you ‘fail’ to understand, it’s that you’re ‘incapable’ of understanding. I quote:-
”Maybe, just maybe someone in authority will now see it necessary to take this matter seriously and hunt down the predator and hopefully save us from further embarrassment”.
Two young people have died. A shark, or shark(s) have certainly attacked and killed these two young men. This is what sharks do, 400 million years of evolution has perfected them to do just this, it’s not their fault. The blame lies at the feet of those who failed to make others aware of the potential hazards, and of previous incidents.
The real trouble with places, and people, who reside and depend upon the tourist trade is their incredible ignorance, they’ve somehow decieved themselves into thinking the oceans are an overgrown playground, swimming pool, rathen than being able to understand that the oceans are a vast, dangerous , wilderness, and the answer isn’t to hunt and kill everything that has the audacity to pursue its instinct.
So, now, we have two young men, dead, killed by a shark, or sharks, families ruined, forever, but lets kill a load of sharks, until we find the one that did it, after all, we’re losing a lot of money here.
More than likely Tiger sharks, I haven’t seen this sustantiated by the officals and authorities yet, but then again, it seems they are a bit selective about what they tell people , and what they dont.
See Allen hasn’t had any recent comments. Was this another unprovoked attack by a propellor? Wake up and smell the roses.
Have seen plenty of Tiger sharks in the area and very big sickle fin lemon sharks. together with plenty of juveniles. I am really curious what the guys from south africa have to say about this and what their findings will be. Still not worried to go diving tomorrow. Been snorkling as well today in the area and must say I did look over my shoulder more then normal. I am leaving the Seychelles next week after 3 years and it already hurts to leave, although I will be going to Cuba where there are more fish and sharks then anywhere else due to their tight fishing regulations they claim. Will start surveying and find out. Plenty of Bull sharks there, that’s for sure.
And at Ultravox, I am afraid your right they will release the news in a way it suits them. I’ll ask some local fisherman later today, they normally know what is going on.
I also heard some comments today that it was just a few feet from the shore, not sure I believe this.
I am not trying to stay anonymous just forgot to put my name in the previous post. Julia D Sigwart.
Thank goodness there seem to be some people out there that think reasonably. Mats will probably remember me we were at school together, and even those years ago I spent most of my free time in the sea!
Unfortunately the full explanation of How and why and which shark on these attacks is an entire doctoral thesis, that would probably bore the average person on the average day, but trust me its probably quite explainable, though almost completely unpredictable!
Though I spent mant years studying engineering, that was as a result that Woods Hole and Scripps turned down my applications to study marine biology many years ago on the basis of being Graduate research institutes, and I was fresh out of school. This has never tempered my interest to explore and understand
the marine environment and its occupants. My line of work as a livaboard dive boat operator gives me much oportunity to persue my interests in the marine biodiversity, and hence probably as the person best placed to attempt an explanation on the attacks which have occured.
Unfortunately many opinions and decisions in regard to this issue are based on speculation and emotion, with little or no knowledge on the situation or real environment which has bought about the attacks.
With a number of thousands of dives, across the Seychelles bank, I have an intimate knowledge of the underwater environment of Baie Chevalier, the rock Peninsula and its underwater extension, and the ‘Gran Maman’rocks on the west, as well as the long rock reef ‘Outer Gran Maman’ and its underwater extentions in the direction of Roche Balaine. In the past 16 years I dive these sites regularly, day and night, with and without clients. I can categorically state that within this area I am unaware of any resident sharks that may have been responsible for the types of attacks as occured. Not that sharks do not exist in this area, yes small white tip reef sharks, ocasional passing nurse sharks. You can get to see some large guitar rays(that look like sharks to the untrained eye) diving Outer Grand Maman’ in 6 m of water on the average day just befor sunset). The place would be an ideal home for a few small bullsharks (but they provably been fished out many years ago) A few may come in the dark of night, but I have never seen! The entry of regionally locally resident sharks into bay for feeding at night is a common and natural process and has never endangered anyone.
So where this this dangerous animal come from, and why was it in the bay? Especially that for so many years we have had no dangerous/fatal shark attacks ((one case mentioned in a previous article, I suspect was incited by some dubious fishing activity)as such does not count). Since the late seventies the number of sitings I have had of large(potentially dangerous) sharks on the mahe plateau is extreemly limited. Though some fishermen from time to time catch a large shark in the gear they lay out these are often females coming in to look for safe pupping grounds! The few big sharks I have seen(over the past 15 years) have been following migrations of oceanic fish across the plateau, or following large shoals of jackfishes, feeding in baitballs. Though the subject requires further and thorough study, I believe that migration of fish across the plateau most often takes a ‘prefered routë’ These routes are non random, but WHEN the shoals of oceanic fish may cross the plateau along these ‘Routes’ appears to be random!
(this is less so for the large shoals(resident on the plateau). The area of Curieuse(Coral Garden)the Curieuse Praslin Channel, and the Outer Grand Maman Rocks, I believe are all on one of these ‘preferred routes’, and as such from time to time, we may get fish migration across these routes , by species not normally resident in this area. I have personally witnessed such migrations of Large yellowfin tunas through this area, as well as other single large fishes inc marlins etc.
That one or more large sharks may be following such a migration, and hence pass directly in front of Bay Chevalier, is quite reasonable. That a shark following such a migration, decide to leave the source of food it is persueing, to go into a bay full of boats and tourist,is definately not a rational/irrational decision on the part of the animal. We can ask why not last year, or in the past 15 or 45 years didn such andiversion occur?
During the south east trades, fan-tail sting rays enter the bay to give birth to live young, which live in the shallows of the bay for a week to 10 days befor departing. In order to increase the chance of survival of the young the females usually make a congregation(to protect the female in the process of giving birth)(the posibility of the use of phermones to assist in the congregation mechanism could assist in attracting a large predator(with a penchant for rays)into the bay.
The odds of a fish migration (with large following shark) passing on front of Anse Lazio, coinciding with the birthing of the rays in the bay is extreemly low, but this expaination is extremely plausible.
The arrival of a reasonably large shark expecting food, in a bay with rays and swimmers, is a natural disaster for all those concerned. The victims and their familys, as well as the all the local businesses and families who will suffer as a result of the drop in tourism.
The lack of experience by the authorities in dealing with such natural disaster is argued by some as the reason for the follow up attack. Such argument is of course subjective and easy to make as an outsider. One could say ‘You dont know what to do until you’ve got to do it!’
Having Advocated Shark Protection for many years, I realise when it is now necessary to go out and catch a particular animal. I hope it does not take too long, so that we can then get to work to correct the many misconceptions regarding this incident, and to do all that should and can be done to hopefully reduce the chances that such incidents occur again(without desimating the already fragile shark population)
Thank you, Charles Savy, for putting into words many of my thoughts. I, too have dived and snorkeled hundreds of times in the inner and outer islands of the Seychelles, and in many other Pacific and Indian Ocean waters. I’ve been a boat captain and diver, and I’ve been spooked only once in many years, by a large group of gray reef sharks while snorkeling on my own at dusk off Round Island, Praslin. I’ve had years and boatloads of tourists diving and snorkeling under my watch in Seychelles and elsewhere, without any incidents. For this reason, the recent attacks are quite surprising, and tragic for those involved. I hope (with regret)that the “culprit” shark is found and killed, but let us remember that we are a terrestrial species, and we enter the ocean world at our own risk. The same risk which we would like to limit is the other side of the coin of adventure. The fact that we are entering an alien world where we cannot control all the variables makes our experience much more valuable than going to an amusement park or a film. After years facing unknown and known risks at sea, I returned to the USA unscathed 2 years ago. Seven months ago while walking down the street in Florida, I was hit by a car and taken to the emergency room, had two operations, and was in a wheelchair for 4 months. My odds of getting killed by a shark or a cyclone were obviously much lower. Perhaps I was too complacent in “civilization”, whereas in the ocean I took precautions, like watching the weather, and acquiring local knowledge when possible. Swimming at dusk is riskier, but I wanted to see sharks (just not as many as I saw). From what I heard the recent attack took place in the late afternoon, also.
Before someone decides that swimming in the Seychelles is too risky, he/she should consider that the same risk exists in any environment worth snorkeling in. No risk, no reward is an old but true saying. But remember that there is risk everywhere, even walking on your street at home. The ocean is home for the sharks (and tuna and plankton, and turtles, etc.). Let’s respect them and protect them, and stop complaining about the dangers the ocean poses, or cover ups by the tourism interests. Stay home and watch a National Geographic video, or be bold and take some risks in life. The rewards are worth it!
To Charles Savy. Hi Charles! Good to see you’re still going strong. I like your theories and hopefully it is a case of unlikely circumstances that have resulted in this tragedy. Will be coming down in December (10th- 8th of January) and will be staying in Anse Posession. Any chance of meeting up for a dive or two?
Mats
I think what the toursit board have done there is despicable. People had known about this shark and their silence has caused a life to be lost. They attempted to brush it under the carpet
I think what the toursit board have done there is despicable. People had known about this shark and their silence has caused a life to be lost. They attempted to brush it under the carpet
Ok, so we all know there is a problem. It amazes me how everyone is so happy to throw stones when not much is known or understood about the situation. 2 lives lost – tragic. Thousands of lives lost in Africa to AIDS, to malaria, to TB every day. And don’t tell me that the governments or the world, or you are doing anything about it and providing all the information. Did the UK government issue warnings to its visitors that their people were rioting and killing people on the streets last week? Why not – it happened there before? Can we not just rather honour the two people who have lost their lives so tragically and support the country in trying to find out the what, why, and where?
To all the stone throwers out there – I am interested to know how well you would handle such a curve ball if it is thrown your way. Easy to sit on the fence and judge – words are cheap!
And, please don’t go back to Seychelles, or even contemplate visiting there – you also need to consider the stonefish (highly poisonous) – the government has not yet got around to putting red alert signs and alarms on them either, so there is a possibility you could step on one of those too. Coconuts also fall out of trees – highly dangerous if you happen to be standing below. And TATA busses. And ‘kalou’. These things have all ‘killed’ humans in the past, and would you know – the government has done NOTHING about it to protect you all. Best you stay home and leave paradise to those of us that can appreciate it.
Stop making excuses and being sarcastic. This is a serious issue and your glib comments are both insensitive and out of order. Yes all these things can happen,freak events occur but your tourist board KNEW there was a dangerous shark in those waters and CHOSE to ignore the risk that it caused. Why were South African experts not brought in after the first attack??? I tell you why…because it wouldn’t look good for tourism. Money could be lost and this was at the forefront of their decision making, not the safety of human life. It was brushed under the carpet in the hope that it would go away.
Very blase attitudes about this poor man’s death; I would be more inclined to support the views of James than those people trying to dismiss the incident as some trivial, misfortunate accident and freak occurance. Yes the ocean is wild and that is what makes it so beautiful, it is even more dangerous getting into a car. The fact remains, however, that both of these fatal attacks took place on the same beach, within metres of each other. Something clearly could have been done to prevent the second death and tourists should at least have been given the knowledge and information that there had been an attack. It reeks of a cover up and the tourist board should have been proactive to further deaths.
Theres been some good points brought up here, I really appreciate those who use common sense and adopt a non biased opinion, who base their opinons without an hidden agenda etc. Unfortuneately wherever theres money, theres corruption. And now , worst of all, we are going to have the ‘experts’ on here,telling us , the uninitiated how little we know about tourism and its many challenges, explaining to us all the facts and figures they’ve read in the latest edition of National Geographic. Oh dear.
If it was me, I would be aggreived that no signs had been put up and no warnings were given to the tourists on the beach on tuesday. Anyone could have died. However, if they had known there was a shark attack and had gone in at least then it was of their own free will and they knew the facts. Hiding the danger from the tourists in the hope that it would disappear is unethical, despicable and short sighted
Erm, Susanne, theres one or two minor , subtle, differences with your comparisons. Try to remember, life is priceless, and so very fragile, and two people have paid the highest price, because of the ignorance of others.
It is verry scary just thinking about all of this. I have been very fortunut enough to dive and snorkal at Anse Lazio last year. It is just like the famous story – Jaws – from the officials not wanting the public to know about the shark in there waters to calling speshialists to help them catch it. We have to appreciate we take our own risks, peeple do not have a bigger rite to go in the sea, its is not our habitat. Take the risk or dont go in
Yes Admin, I see your point but this is real life….not a movie! These are real lives, not fictional people. Like you I have had the pleasure of going to Anse Lazio this year with my wife Jackie. The beach was absolutely amazing and I’ll never forget snorkelling with these little negro boys by one of the many rocks there. Just think, one of those little negro boys could have been killed by that shark. The government failed to protect those locals and the tourists
Virgil, I appreciate your opinion but I fail to see the releavance of including the young boy’s skin colour. However I do agree that the government/tourist board were negligent
Sorry to rane on your parade Vigil, but you are being quiet harsh. You may not no this but cheif died recently, so it is real life. And I would think that the natives are much 2 clever 2 be going in the warter. I feel 4 them as torism is there bred and butter.
I agree Margaret with what you say, having to mention the colour is serving no perpose at all.
Lets just hope this shark got lost and its family have found him and taken him back 2 the deep see
It appears to be a rogue shark, just like some of the rogues in the Seychelles tourism industy. I don’t the shark has lost it’s family Admin…it’s not Finding Nemo or Jaws. You watch too many movies. I’d be interested in hearing some views of the Seychellois. Where do you stand on the issue?
Wow, what a great deal of interesting posts. I would say that some of you have lost sight of the real issue though!…From a sitting on the fence perspective, I would offer the comment that they Government would have been rather foolish to ban swimming, diving etc in their waters after one isolated incident. After all it was more than 45 years before this that they saw the last shark attack. I think that the appropriate action has been taken and at the right time. Let’s just hope that there are not any more lives lost and think of the poor victims and their loved ones
Rather foolish? In retrosepect this was the right thing to do….was it even discussed by the Govt. or did they flippantly just decide to ignore the death of the French diver? Tourists should have been warned
of the shark stalking the territory
Margaret, I think you think I am stupid. You may laugh at me comparing this senario to films but were do u think riters get there informachmeion from? O let me c, from things that have happened. I could name a few films that back me up, but I think even u wld get it now othersise we wld not be interested in watching now would we!!!!! Sorry to rant but that really got to me
I think that you could be being a tad dramatic there Margaret. I would hardly consider 2 deaths, by a shark that could have attacked many more as a stalker now! Using scare tactics like that would prevent people from taking any risks at all. Let us just relax our opinions, measures have been taken, at the right time. We need to respect the victims of this tragedy
I think Margaret is respecting the victims of this tragedy. It’s the laid back attitude’s of the Seychellois tourism industry that shows disrespect….where were the signs on the beach? why were tourists not warned? these are all questions that need to be answered. My opinions can not be relaxed on a matter like this.
Thanks for your support James. Angela, I can see where you’re coming from but I think you’re being far too laid back if I’m honest. Admin….this is an adult debate. You clearly have missed the point completely and your spelling is so atrocious I can hardly make out a word you are saying. Please refrain from personal attacks and stop talking about movies. This is real life, real people and a real problem that must be tackled
Margaret, I am an adult thanks. Cleerly not as far up my own back side as u. Verry sorry that my spelling is ATROCIOUS as you so kindley put it. I was under the imprechion that it was ok 4 peeple to air there opinions. I think we all at leest agree that wat hapened is a sad loss and terible and r hearts go out to all involved.
I think Angela is very sensibel, we shouldnt stop taking risks or we wld not get enywere.
They said the first accident was maybe due to a boat or a shark.
That’s all. After that, they never said anything about it, so we still dont know what it was. But I’m sure they know the answer.
Ok, the first victim was deep sea diving when it happened and it’s been 50 years or so since the last attack, so I can understand why they though it would not happen on the beach, but they should have at least put some signs up..so people could still swimm but with that in mind. Now they had to close the beachs so all in one, it was a bad idea not to say/do anything.
Btw there were 2 attacks in russia (japan sea) yesterday and before yesterday..something which happens very rarely up there as well..
There has been a 25% augmentation in shark attack in 2010 compared to 2009, and 2011 seems to be on the same sad road.
The main (hypothetical) reasons of this augmentation are:
_Climatic changes (warmer seas)
_ Lack of foods in the ocean due to the over-fishing
_Tourism and shark feeding
Sharks are not the problem, they are predators, they just do their job. We however are acting completly wrong. I hope we will change our behaviors somedays..but I hardly see how it could (peacefully) happen.
(apologize for my not so good english)
We’ll be heading to the Seychelles in a few days for 3 weeks of holiday. I wish I had the time to change the trip to another destination. I don’t wish to change the destination because I’m disappointed about not diving or snorkeling (which is significant for my family) but rather because of the attitude I’m seeing from the gov’t of Seychelles and people like Allen and Boris. You do not ethically have the right make to risk based decisions that affect the safety of tourists (humans.) You are not obligated to close the beaches or inform us of the dangers. You are however, the lowest of human existence to tell tourists that it’s fine to go into the water and that the lost human lives from the past few weeks are forgettable. F*ck you.
Speaking from a personal point of view I don’t think these tragic incidents will be forgotten for a very very long time. It was obviously a BIG mistake not to come out with all the facts after the first incident and perhaps someone is lying sleepless over that right now. There were also other aspects regarding the first incident that were incorrect: According to witness accounts it was not a “deep sea diver” or someone scuba diving but a normal swimmer (not even snorkelling). Why these facts did not come out we can only speculate and perhaps there will be some answers in the future. It could be a result of confusion/disbelief over what is a previously unheard of event, lack of adequate information or a real ‘cover-up’. However, facts are out now and measures have been taken. We must at least acknowledge that.
Right now, however, there seems to be no sense in blaming people for what has been – what has happened has happened and no matter how tragic we cannot turn back the clock. Instead I hope there will be active looking forward to see what should be done. Personally I would like some more facts as soon as possible. What species was it? According to some reports there was a tooth found so if this is case identifying the species shark should be easy. Identifying the species is important since it might give a clue as to what to expect in the future. If it is a typically coastal shark, chances are that it can be caught. If it is a pelagic species it may be more more difficult but theories such as the one presented by Charles Savy above would at least give us a clue as to the type of conditions that present future risk windows.
Finally Robert, I understand your anger and think the total tragedy of what has happened must be acknowledged. All involved deserve that respect – the families and friends of the deceased as well as all who were there and witnessed these terrible events. It is also a disaster for all who love the sea around the Seychelles and especially those who earn a living from it. As someone with a genuine interest in Seychelles I really hope that your visit will be as good as it can given the circumstances. I also hope that this pointless for or against discussion ceases. No one here is for the death of two young men.
Oh by the way. Here is the source for the eye-witness accounts from the first attack:
http://sharkattackmonitor.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/update-to-fatal-shark-attack-at-anse-lazio-praslin-seychelles-on-1-august-2011/
And… Apparently the English victim was not totally unaware of the dangers. I just read some blog posts by a certain ‘BELO’ working at Bon Bon Plume (the restaurant closest to where the incidents took place) and according to his account they were warning all tourists after the first event (including the English couple).
Scroll down to end of blog post
source: http://sharkattackmonitor.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/fatal-%E2%80%93-1-august-2011-%E2%80%93-anse-lazio-praslin-syechelles-%E2%80%93-diver-attacked/
Thanks for the links Mats
This is why I hate TV and most big Media, they’re just sharing the shameful governement’s version of the story without caring about it. Journalist is an endangered species.
Stockings, your conclusions amaze me. So I will slowly recede into my cool oceanic pool and be happy with my tooth and fin pals.
However, you should know eating shark is natural for me and one of my favourite dishes is shark chutney… I’ve just had a plateful of it for dinner.
So stay in your boots and beware least I catch you and turn you into a chutney with chillies. Yum Yum
The problem from my vantage point is that you have an entire “movement” in marine biology- that is rooted in shark conservation- that improperly seeks to “invalidate” the notion of man-eating sharks in order to condition the public to see them as “misunderstood” apex predators that attack and consume humans on accoutn of “mistaken identity” or some unfounded territorial response because, of course, “we know very little about them.” All of this is flat out false.
White, Bull, Oceanic Whitetip and Tiger sharks all attack and consume humans as a tertiary food source. When it happens in the Seychelles (likely one of the latter two species), we don’t need to blame the media. For what? They have been used by the prime movers of the “pro-conservation” message to recondition the public that mankind’s deeply rooted, genetic fear of sharks is, after all, simply Hollywood-induced JAWS hysteria. Predictably, these self-decribed “shark experts” go on to dispense the most outlandish “reasons” for shark attacks, e.g., the shark “thought the human it just bit into and fed on was a turtle” or “the shark thought the human was another shark and was defending its territory,” etc.
Blah blah blah.
The law of parsimony works and is.
When a known man-eating shark attacks and consumes a human, it is a result of metabolic need. “Why” does it happen?
“Opportunity makes a thief.” – Francis Bacon
Some sensible observations and opinions here, unfortuneately some ‘hidden agenda’ comments too, ‘double jeopardy’ comments won’t ever fool the forward thinking people, those who question what they are told.
Some people submit comments in forums to simply try and be contraversial, they like the attention, and they like to appear more intelligent than they actually are, I find them transculent, devoid of opinion, reliant on rhetoric, and predicatable, it’s this level of pretence that some people display that leads to many of the problems humanity faces today. Theres some good examples here, which is a shame, I was always told if you dont have anything constructive to say, then dont say it.
My compliments to many on here, for remaining calm, collective, and informative, especially ‘drudown’, who talks more sense on his worst day, than most are capable of talking on their best day.
Who’s the bigger fool… the fool, or the fool that follows ?
Everyone should consider. The Indian ocean has many
shark species that can and will eat anything that is alive or dead be it fish, mamals or if given the chance humans. There are many stupid excuses that excuse the shark if it attacks a human.
My uncle Jack Smedley was worth more than all the sharks that ever lived & yet the chairman of the
Mediteranian Shark Trust said it was a very very rare attack , but as I pointed out to him it was the most devastating occurance at the time and on this point he accnowledged.
In the Mediteranian there are Great White Sharks especially around their breeding territory around Sicily and Malta but this is not widely publicized. There has only been one television documentary on these subjects.
When my friend & I dived Malta the dive shop told me there had been a diver gone missing in St Thomas’s Bay & yet there had not been any publicity to our knowlege. The local fishermen however know they (sharks) are there.
It’s been confirmed, Great White Shark, by ‘experts’.
What they should do is ask ‘Allen Houareau’,for his opinions on this, and then just do the complete opposite, and they’ll probably get it right that way.
This gets more like ‘Jaws’ everyday, evidently the hotel owners of the island have all chipped in and offered £3,000 quid for its capture.
Y’all know me. Know how I earn a livin’. I’ll catch this bird for you, but it ain’t gonna be easy. Bad fish! Not like going down to the pond and chasing bluegills and tommycod. This shark, swallow ya whole. Little shakin’, little tenderizin’, down you go. And we gotta do it quick, that’ll bring back the tourists, that’ll put all your businesses on a payin’ basis. But it’s not gonna be pleasant! I value my neck a lot more than three thousand bucks, chief. I’ll find him for three, but I’ll catch him, and kill him, for ten. But you’ve gotta make up your minds. If you want to stay alive, then ante up. If you want to play it cheap, be on welfare the whole winter. I don’t want no volunteers, I don’t want no mates, there’s too many captains on this island. Ten thousand dollars for me by myself. For that you get the head, the tail, the whole damn thing.
What species? I have been reading various reports now and don’t get any wiser. The latest in the Daily Telegraph is that it was a Great White, but knowing media’s tendency to jump on any story (especially if it is spectacular) i don’t really trust headlines. I wonder if anyone out there has any inside info: what type of shark was it? I mean how difficult can it be if they had a tooth?! Charles- are you out there?
Mats
Yeah Mats, evidently they removed a tooth, it has a serated edge which identifies it as a Great White, estimated to be 9ft – 10ft.
See the local nut cases have started their well thought out plan of killing the shark, catch as many as you can until you stumble upon the right one, nutters.
Christian added: “They told me it was undoubtedly a Great White Shark.”
The beast that mutilated Ian as he snorkelled off a beach had killed a French tourist there days before.
And Christian, who ferried dying Ian to the beach and tried to keep him alive, said: “This shark came here to hunt. He’ll come back, that’s for sure.”
Christian and a friend were on a catamaran 20 yards from Ian when he was mauled in front of horrified bride Gemma.
He added: “Everyone was bathing at that spot. I swam myself. Clearly, the predator was around me somewhere. I was lucky. The shark wanted prey. It was the British tourist or me. But I got out of the water five minutes before the attack.”
Christian, 52, said he was stunned to learn the shark had struck off Anse Lazio beach days before.
He added: “No one knew a French tourist was killed a fortnight earlier. The authorities hid the truth so as not to frighten tourists. Without their negligence this Englishman wouldn’t have died.”
Describing the attack on Ian, French holidaymaker Christian said: “He uttered a cry of terror before disappearing underwater.
“There was an enormous pool of blood. We will never forget it. My family and I are very shocked – and I am a surgeon.”
Christian bravely hauled Ian’s mutilated body from the water as the predator circled.
He said: “It was horrible. His left arm was cut off and there was no muscle on his left thigh. You could only see bone.
“He was still alive but in shock through the violence of the impact.”
Christian managed to get Ian ashore where teacher Gemma was shaking and sobbing.
He said: “We got oxygen bottles from a divers’ boat and we gave him adrenaline. But he lost too much blood. I lost him.”
Christian said US marine scientists who questioned him about the attack are convinced a Great White Shark was to blame.
Seychelles authorities are saying the killer is either a large bull or tiger shark.
But Christian said: “They told me it was undoubtedly a Great White Shark.”
A fisherman yesterday caught a 40st shark not far from the area where software expert Ian was attacked.
Stockings. Serrated tooth also fits with Bull shark. Tiger is very distinct since there is an angle and a tip (sort of difficult to explain in words but check images on google pics for example) so there is no room for confusion there. But it would be great to get a confirmed report from the authorities.
Yeah, also heard of indiscriminate killings of sharks- even a guitar fish! What a bloody mess!
Seychelles tourism industry have blood on their hands for not warning about this shark…they were only interested in money and their economy. Not human life
Dunno Mats, am no expert, but there’s quite a bit on the web suggesting it’s a Great White Shark, but know what you mean, headlines and deadlines are there to sell newspapers, even if it is mostly lies, lol.
A report sent by South African marine scientists to officials in the Seychelles says it has unmistakably serrated edges and a unique triangular shape, proving it belongs to the deadly predator.
hmm. Yeah I have read reports to the same effect although they still don’t seem to be 100% certain. Great White is the last species I would have guessed. This really makes it a very special case. I wonder what brought it to the Seychelles. Great Whites normally follow the cold oceanic streams. Sort of doesn’t make sense.
Mats
Although I wouldn’t have guessed White shark, I think the attack makes more sense now, i.e., these sharks are highly migratory and will eat just about anything when in the open ocean (youtube search
“shark takes woman’s leg”). This shark likely found the Seychelles and was in desperate need of sustenance. After all, the doctor that rendered emergency aid was the first to concede that the shark was “definitely feeding” on the victim.
But that doesn’t surprise me either.
What does, in fact, surprise me are puff pieces like those written in the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0823-sharkman-20110823,0,3415932,full.story ) that use terms like “so-called” man-eaters when describing White sharks.
Tell me, how can any rational, thinking human being dispassionately contend that the White shark patrolling the Seychelles isn’t a man-eater? The same people that like to “debunk” the term man-eater by pointing to JAWS fail to realize that three whole people were found in the belly of one large White shark off New England.
Sharks eat people. Orcas do not.
Yet people with an agenda can even get their unfounded ideas in the newspaper and will believe nothing else.
“The facts are to blame, my friend. We are all imprisoned by facts: I was born, I exist.” – Luigi Pirandello
Can we say less of White sharks and their man-eating propensities?
Mats, This is Charles Savy’s Brother, David. Charles IS OUT THERE!!.. at Anse Lazio that is.. he has been there since Thursday last week in an effort to capture & kill the shark, even though such act goes against his strong environmental conscience.
It is interesting that long before the South African Experts predicted that it is probably a great white, Charles had done so. I spent Friday and Saturday on the boat with Charles in and around Anse Lazio capturing some of this “Shark Hunt” effort on video in the hope that at some point we can tell the story in a sensible and balanced manner. Unlike Charles, I know nothing about sharks or other sea creatures for that matter. But I do understand media and know that corrective measures need to be taken in terms of information dissemination surrounding what, increasingly, appears to be an evolving controversy. In my humble opinion there is much more to this story than the unfortunate incidents of two people losing their lives!
I urge readers and contributors of this blog/forum to consider that this shark may never be captured/killed and that we may/will probably never know the full story! Maybe one needs to examine past and present practices that may have contributed to such deadly attraction of this shark to this beach. In the meantime the livelihoods of many people are impacted by rumormongering and the “FEEDING FRENZY” that is occurring in the media and on social sites.
What I find most interesting is the number of armchair critics and self-appointed experts that surface under such grievous circumstances.
I can say one thing! When Charles looks out over the waters in and around the areas of the attacks, he does not simply see water as most people do. He reads below the surface of the sea as hills and valleys, rocky outcrops and pinnacles and identifies closely with the trees, flowers, birds, beasts and tiny insects of the underwater world. His knowledge of the area above and below the water is most significant and I am sure will be useful in at least contributing to a sensible explanation of these incidents. I hope and trust that readers of this blog who are CONSTRUCTIVELY involved in the effort to correct/contain this matter at least have the sense and sensibility to contact Charles and get him to share His experience and knowledge. Even the experts may learn something!
Here is the the aforementioned evidence of a migrating White shark preying on a human being
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SKw-JgduRw
“Case closed.”
Hi David! Nice to hear from you! I used to dive with Charles and Philip and was at school together with Charles. I sort of remember you too: you were the younger brother right? I agree with your sentiments about containing this affair. I see dangers in all extreme stances which are based on hearsay and pseudo science. For one, playing down the incidents as freaks or even trying to cover up facts will not install any confidence in future visitors. Stories of ‘rogue’ sharks, and freak incidents don’t help. It’s just wishful thinking. Neither do I think that attitudes such as those displayed by drudown help either. Yes, sharks are dangerous but that danger has to be put in proportion. There are roughly 70 shark incidents a year and approximately 10% of these are lethal. What surprises me is that there are not more incidents given the millions of swimmers, surfers and divers who unknowingly must be in contact range with large sharks every year. Given these statistics, if sharks really were using humans as a primary food source, they would be extremely inefficient hunters and extinct by now. They are not! I can draw a parallel to bears here in Sweden who are considered “dangerous” too. There are about 20-30 000 Brown Bears in Sweden and each year there are roughly 2-3 incidents with bears attacking humans. Very rarely are these lethal. Given the fact that 1000nds of hunters actively pursue bears this low figure of incidents is even more surprising. There are more incidents involving the dogs used when hunting down bears but these don’t make the headlines. Bears are dangerous and dogs are not. That’s what we have decided and the press reports accordingly.
In order to make any sense out of the shark attacks on Anse Lazio I think (in my humble opinion) that we have to learn something from them:
a) there are dangerous sharks in the Seychelles. It is not a free zone from shark attacks and cautionary measures taken in other parts of the world should equally be recommended to all tourists and locals in Seychelles (not swimming at dusk/dawn, wearing a wet suit, having something to probe the potential shark with handy, always being observant and never diving, snorkling or swimming alone etc).
b) Since there are dangerous sharks around we must start acting accordingly. This means avoiding attracting sharks by dumping waste from boats etc when moored close to beaches such as Anse Lazio.
c) There ought to be better precautionary readiness for shark attacks on popular beaches. First aid kits, people trained in first aid, perhaps manned look-out posts. The emergency services also have to be trained in this type of injury. I am not saying that this would have saved any of these two victims but given that 90% of incidents are not fatal it may well do so in the future.
d) As much information relating to the two incidents ought to be extracted as possible in order to identify risk conditions. For example, we do not know if it was the same shark that attacked both times. This is just taken for granted (although it is actually quite unlikely). If we assume that it was two sharks, there may well be circumstances that have attracted the shark/s. Charles mentioned mating rays that give out hormones which attract sharks, others have mentioned the dumping of waste, and I have also read reports about there having been baited hooks outside Anse Lazio which were put there in response to the first incident. People did apparently not know this.
Learning from the incident and Identifying as many risk factors as possible and taking precautionary measures accordingly must be the way forward. This will also reinstall the confidence in Seychelles as a serious destination. Pretending nothing happened will not. Neither will shark hysteria.
@Drudown
I see you are also pretty sick of people pretending that sharks are nice.
“stop killing the sharks because they’re peacefull creatures”
is the wrong sentence
“Stop killing the sharks, because Predators are usefull in the ecosystem”
is the correct sentence
I wish more people would think like that.
Yeah that makes perfect sense Bob. They are not ‘nice’ but neither are they specialised ‘man eaters’. They are well capable of killing humans, however. That is evident. We don’t go petting lions when on safari just because they normally eat zebras and neither should we underestimate sharks. Instead be aware of the dangers and take necessary precautions. It’s just a matter of respect.
“A 49-year-old surfer (name not reported) has died from wounds to his leg after being bitten by what is believed to be a great white, while surfing at Lookout Beach in Plettenberg Bay, South Africa. The incident at 9.11am on Tuesday 23 August 2011.
According to the brief report, witnesses said the man’s leg was badly injured. The National Sea Rescue Institute said doctors spent several hours trying to save the man, but failed.
ZigZag reports: He saw the shark, which from reports was not a big shark, and shouted to warn the others. The shark then turned on him, and took him first on the top of the leg, possibly severing the femoral artery. It then pulled him under and took him on the bottom of the leg.”
And again..
@Mats
Spare me the broad strokes of criticism. I have been exceedingly specific in my analysis. If something is unfounded, speak directly to it. Unlike you, I was formally trained in Sociobiology and Evolution. I find it humorous you invoke scientific precepts in the abstract and reference “psuedo-science” when the gist of your arguments have no science behind them at all. You are essentially making the most subjective, arbitrary distinctions imaginable, e.g., “What surprises me is that there are not more incidents given the millions of swimmers, surfers and divers who unknowingly must be in contact range with large sharks every year. Given these statistics, if sharks really were using humans as a primary food source, they would be extremely inefficient hunters and extinct by now.” None of that is science. Statistical infrequency of a known phenomena cannot be “disproven” by such unfounded statistical “onclusions”, e.g., in order for human predation to be a real phenomena, [the argument goes] it should be much higher frequency than is documented in the natural world.
Nonsense.
By analogy, when migrating, White sharks have been documented to prey on Petrel birds. What, am I supposed to believe “Petrels aren’t on the White shark’s menu” because, like humans, they are a tertiary prey item? White sharks are GENERALIST feeders. It is their ecological niche. That is science.
Talking about “containing” a situation is necessary for economic reasons- prating on and on about how shark finning is unsustainable- none of this is relevant to the sociobiological understanding of White shark predation patterns- whether on humans or Petrel birds, for that matter.
I’ve been blogging about sharks for over a decade- and studying their behavior for over 25 years. If you think you have special insight into their sociobiology, I respectfully submit it is time to put your cards on the table.
As for your bear analogy, I was within 100 yards (sometimes 10 feet) of at least 50 different Brown bears in Katmai National Park earlier this month. I was even charged by one that wanted a sockeye salmon I snagged (we are going for the rainbow trout) and pulled onto the banks of the Moraine river. Like a White shark taking a fish off a spearfisherman’s line, the bear opportunistically and unapologetically took the resource at a whim. When the guide yelled “break the line, break the line” (i.e., naturalist/guide etiquette suggests it is improper to unintentionally feed the bears in this way- that is, they will associate fishing with a feeding opportunity), I just dropped the fly rod and skulked away in a submissive manner. In those instances, it is all about self-preservation and the bear crossed the 15 meter river in about 5 seconds.
Just as it would be asinine to postulate that the “bear thought I was another bear” or the bear that ate Tim Treadwell “thought he was a baby moose”, so too is all the unfounded, speculative groupthink people proffer after a fatal shark attack. There isn’t some “unknown” reason why the White in the Seychelles attacked and consumed the poor victim. It is basic survival, not unlike the bear taking my salmon.
That is the law of the jungle.
I’ve dived with over 30 different White sharks and have no doubt whatsover that (1) they know exactly what humans are; (2) that we are both a prey and a competitor capable of killing them with technological weapons (which explains their cautious approach).
There is absolutely no evidence and unequivocally zero science behind “mistaken identity” theory and I invite you to enlist whatever “expert” you know of to come debate me here. We can start with “debating” whetyher or not White sharks are, in fact, man-eaters.
You might as well tell me that the sun revolves around the earth. The only difference being that, with the latter, religious zealots subvert true science trying to “save” people’s souls. Here, people subvert science trying to “save” the sharks or the Seychelles’ tourism.
I really have no interest in “containing” any public relations problem for the Seychelles any more than the diving industry adversely affected by the recent Red Sea attacks. As I an avid SCUBA diver myself, shark attacks are a risk I assume every time I go in the water.
But the “danger” is becoming a meal.
If you think it is anything else, that is your fiction.
ps. it is hardly a matter of “respect”.
There is nothing a human being can do to avoid a White shark attack other than not go in the water to begin with. While certain factors you reference contribute to the likelihood of an attack (e.g., swimming at night or at a rivermouth), at the end of the day, none of it makes anyone materially “safer”. If a shark is in need of sustenance, it might eat you. Does swimming with seals increase the chances of attack (a la Debbie Franzman at Avila Beach). Sure.
But let the record reflect it is because humans are a known, tertiary prey item of the White shark, i.e., not because any White shark- with its finely tuned perceptive faculties- is going to “mistake” a human in a wetsuit and flippers with an agile pinniped. Rather, it is because White sharks are opportunistic predators. By analogy, the Brown bear that took my salmon absconded with another bear’s salmon 10 minutes later. Opportunism defines the apex predaor’s predation patterns.
In this regard, anyone that truly understands Lion and Hyena sociobiology knows that hunting and scavenging are hardly mutually exclusive. Why should a nomdic male Lion risk injury taking down a Cape buffalo when he can steal Cheetahs’ kills 10 times out of 10? Moreover, just as the circling vultures operates as a cue to the male Lion that an opportunity may present itself, so too, does the familiar hum of the boat propeller present a cue to the White shark. It is utterly laughable when people contend that “cage dives are going to teach White sharks to associate boats with food.” That correlation has been established since the first hominids used rafts to migrate out of Africa more than 2mm years ago on their way to Java and beyond.
Perceiving this, when a shark attack occurs, it seems illogical to “blame” a correlation between opportunism (e.g., Oceanic Whitetips allegedly feeding on sheep thrown overboard in the Red Sea) and the observed instances of human predation. If anything, we should look to the widespread depletion of fish stocks around the world.
Wait a second.
Hmmm.
Whether evaluating the spate of attacks in Australia in 2009, the ones in the Seychelles or the one yesterday in South Africa…”teenage” White sharks are implicated. As is well known, younger White sharks tend to prey on fish as a primary food source. If we rapidly deplete the fish stocks, it could explain why younger White sharks are going to capitalize on other, available prey.
It is not as if human beings haven’t always been a part of the White shark ecosystem. It seems other selective forces have prevented them from preying on us.
Hunger, it seems, is enough to overcome such evolutionary contraints.
@drudown
I apologise if I have offended drudown, but given your obvious experience and expertise on the subject I am still confused not by what you say, but how you forward it. I too have a background in in Biology. I studied Marine Biology and did my major in Freshwater Biology. I have also spent many years in the Seychelles and know the place well. Since my studies in Biology I have however moved onto other areas and presently I work as associate professor in the domain of education and language, where I also hold my PhD. Enough CVs, but it just shows that we just shouldn’t assume too much: “Unlike you, I was formally trained in Sociobiology and Evolution”. I guess we both are guilty of that so let’s just call it evens
Back to my confusion: why do you so aggressively have to push on the point that sharks, and Great Whites in particular, see humans as a potential prey. I for one have not disputed that theory. I actually see noone here that has. On the contrary, I have tried to point out the fact that there is a real danger and that this has to be acknowledged so that we can act in ways that will minimise risks. Not recognising sharks as predators is not such a strategy – this is what I mean by ‘matter of respect’, we have to respect their role in the ecosystem, for our own sakes so that we don’t end up as a meal when we thought we were just ‘petting a friendly misunderstood beasty’.
However, and I am being pragmatic here, risk analysis is necessary to put things in a realistic light. Fact remains that there are relatively few fatal attacks given the number of swimmers, divers, surfers, snorkelers, etc that move in the domain of the shark. This is not the same thing as saying that sharks are not dangerous, but that the dangers have to be viewed in light of other dangers because unlike you and me, most people out there do not bother finding out anything beyond what they read in the popular media. A ‘media feeding frenzy’ as the one following this incident make people even more ignorant: British gutter press is full of inaccurate ‘facts’. For example they confuse “attacks” with “fatal attacks” and many now read that there are approximately 70-80 fatal attacks a year! The result of sensationalist uninformed reporting is that a) there is even less respect for the marine ecosystem as everyone applauds senseless mass hunts that don’t guarantee anything and that b) fragile economies such as that of the Seychelles are devastated. I therefore think it is our responsibility to be balanced.
Back to your comments:
“Tell me, how can any rational, thinking human being dispassionately contend that the White shark patrolling the Seychelles isn’t a man-eater? ”
“Sharks eat people.”
All of these statements may well be true, but they shouldn’t they be modified? To the sensationalist seeking layman you make it sound as if sharks primarily feed on humans. If I eat meat one day a year and am vegetarian the other 363 days I am by logical definition a ‘meat eater’ but that does not give an accurate description of my average daily feeding behaviour.
“There is nothing a human being can do to avoid a White shark attack other than not go in the water to begin with.”
This again is sensationalist and not entirely accurate. We can avoid going into water where sharks have been sighted and at times when we know they feed and we can certainly behave in ways that will lessen the risk that we are going to be attacked.
Unlike you, I do have an interest in the Seychelles. I grew up there and still have many friends and a half brother down there. I know that many people’s livelihoods depend on tourism and I also know how vulnerable this industry is. I am not advocating a ‘sticking your head in the sand’ policy. Instead I think that informing people of the risks so that they can minimise them or at least be aware of them is the only way forward. You yourself mention this: “As I an avid SCUBA diver myself, shark attacks are a risk I assume every time I go in the water.” The difference here must be that you know what that risk is. Most laymen simply stay out of the water and that has devastating effects for an economy like the one in the Seychelles.
From my perspective, biology and the humanities, I don’t think we can disregard the effects our biological descriptions have on people in general. You obviously care for the marine ecosystem and you mourn overfishing and the destruction of habitats just as much as I do. And I am not saying that you advocate indiscriminate hunting of sharks (on the contrary). Neither am I saying that you advise people not to enter the ocean and visit places like the Seychelles but have you contemplated the effects of what you say and how you say it? Since this is a complex issue, let’s not simplify it.
Mats,,,, you talk a lot, ,, but say ‘very little’, ,, stop digging a hole for yourself.
Stockings
I am actually just saying one thing: the incidents in Seychelles may well have a greater impact than two deaths, both on the eco-system and on the livelihoods of people, and as such they deserve a balanced, well-informed and constructive discussion. Enough said.
I think its pretty obvious that in general great white sharks do no seek out and attack people on beaches, or even underwater. If they did, there would be massive numbers of attacks every year. The number of times they are aware of us in their environment and dont attack must be huge, yet compare this to the number of attacks. We must be the easiest prey in the water for them and yet they do not repeatedly scope out and eat bathers. Sharks are known to contregate in areas of food at certain times of the year. Why dont we get such congregations around the beaches? We still kill hundreds of millions of sharks a year, there is a tiny fraction to what there was many years ago and yet attacks were no more common 20 years ago. If there are more shark attacks now, its clearly our fault, we screwed the environment, the habitat and the fish stocks. Until we destroy the sea completely, we will still get such incidents, but thats a risk we have to take. Kill all the sharks and we kill the seas. Simple as that.
By Our fault, i mean MAN, not the poor victim
@Mats
No offense taken.
Let the record reflect, however, that my analysis is circumscribed to the underlying sociobiology of the subject species. Conspicuously, you and Paul (and most of the world) are really talking more about society’s “negative perception” of the subject species. I find it disheartening that many self-described “shark experts” routinely invoke bee sting, coconut and vending machine mortality rates, as if, in the end, these statistics have relevance whatsoever to shark behavior. They don’t. It is all an imageless act with an eye towards “reconditioning” society to see sharks as something other than what they are: a generalist feeder, apex predator that has ALWAYS been known to have occasion to eat us as a tertiary prey item. In this regard, while Paul’s suggestion that if there are more shark attacks now, “it is our fault” clearly has merit, at the same time, a handful of pelagic sharks have been preying on us since time began. I mean, it is no coincidence that Bull sharks inhabit nearly every major river sustaining the earliest civilizations.
Moreover, I simply find it is disheartening that people with scientific training (e.g., Dr. McCosker) seem quite content to consistently and unapologetically dispense lies (“mistaken identity” is the main reason for shark attacks) and have essentially become public relations liaisons for sharks, as if, in the end, society is too weak minded to desire shark conservation if fully apprised of their man-eating propensities- to say nothing of being truthful.
Anyway, have to run to a meeting.
peace,
drudown
@drudown
Ok point taken. we’ve simply been talking apples and pears. At least we can agree on truthful. Makes perfect sense.
peace too,
Mats
Now then.
As for your alleged “confusion”. Humans are very much prey of White sharks and, regardless of what is written on this site, there is an entire movement in shark sociobiology to “discredit” such a basic scientific fact. It bothers me. By analogy, it “bothered” me in undergrad (circa 1993) when some of my Human Evolution professors from Harvard suggested that, well, early hominids were marginal scavengers (i.e., not proficient hunters). The whole “movement” in Human Evolution was to relegate early man to a marginal scavenger so as not to reinforce gender stereotypes- notwithstanding the fact that every hunter/gatherer society had such gender defined roles- to say nothing of the selfsame dynamic observed in the larger primate species, e.g., females are the primary caregivers and males protect the social group.
Reduced to its essence, just as “revisionist” anthropologists tried to impugn the “real world”, common sense theories of, say Raymond Dart (e.g., early hominids needed violent self-defense and proficient hunting behavioral adaptations in order to ascend to our present state), so too, have “revisionist” marine biologists and naturalists tried to impugn the “real world”, common sense notions that, inter alia, White, Tiger, Bull and Oceanic Whitetip sharks are man-eaters and to exercise extreme caution around them because of said man-eating propensities.
Today, of course, these “revisionist” marine biologists most notably point to “mouthing” behavior and “investigatory” behavior to explain away instances of predation- not unlike pointing to seemingly docile behavior exhibited around baited cage dive conditions. With the latter, White/Tiger/Bull sharks have been conditioned to behave in such a manner to receive a free meal. It hardly has any sociobiological relevance to explain and/or understand shark predation patterns after a maritime disaster (e.g., USS Indianapolis; a ferry disaster along the Ganges; Haitian immigrants in the Florida straits). In this regard, at least 50 to 100+ Haitians were eaten by sharks (if memory serves) on May 4, 2007 in the FL straits. That is why the statistics cited are useless. A single maritime disaster could double the alleged annual figures, i.e., I don’t even think that documented maritime disaster was included in the ISAF’s 2007 stats.
Whatever.
I respectfully take no position on what the actual stats are. I am fascinated by sharks- their evolution, their adaptations and everything in between. Maybe this post I wrote on a different site explains what “bothers” me the most: the notion that people that “tag” sharks, study them for a living or operate eco-tourist excursions have some special insight to their behavior. Either the truth of their assertions is there, or it is not there. If anything, I feel all these individuals have a financial bias, e.g., the White shark is both Chris Fallow’s/Rodney Fox’s cash cow. Why wouldn’t they use their “special relationship” with sharks to advance their own agenda? Why wouldn’t a grant-seeking grad student (e.g., [drudown, I can write this] “Why Sharks Matter”] allege there is “so much we don’t know about sharks” when, in reality, there is nothing about the “mystery” surrounding White shark birthing grounds that shrouds the self-evident nature of their ecological niche.
Anyways, at the risk of being redundant, here is the post for collective perusal. As much as I prefer to write off about sharks off the top of my head, I have to get back to my corporate shark duties…
***
Why is any person’s “experience” with White sharks relevant to the Science of “why” these sharks attack and consume people? Either predatory motive is there, or it is not there. Pointing to instances of the latter to explain away the former is junk science. Unfounded speculation is not Science at all.
“As soon as any one belongs to a narrow creed in Science, every unprejudiced and true perception is gone.” – Goethe
Neither ecotourist profiteers like Fallows/Rodney Fox, nor grant-seeking graduate students like WSM, nor TOPP participants like Sean Van Sommeran – not even the highly esteemed Dr. McCosker- can “testify” as to what a White shark was thinking when any shark attacks and totally/partially consumes a human being. All we have to analyze is (1) the data in the factual record (e.g., was the manner of attack even similar to the ambush strike employed on pinnipeds; as noted above, youtube search “shark takes woman’s leg” to analyze an actual attack) and (2) the Science of the pelagic shark’s ecological niche. By way of strident example, Oceanic Whitetips occupy a generalist feeder, apex predator ecological niche in the resource-scarce open ocean. There is verily no “mistake” when they eat whatever edible prey they find and overpower. The “bump” they employ is likely to test whether or not the prey can defend itself. White sharks are also generalist feeders. They aren’t these finicky, specialized pinniped predators many people condition the public to believe.
Conspicuously, any invocation of “mistaken identity” immediate runs afoul of the scientific method. It can’t ever be proven. And yet, nearly every time a maritime disaster happens off South Africa or in Florida straits, pelagic sharks predictably arrive and pick off human prey. I’m supposed to believe that “because they only chewed off a leg”, it wasn’t predation? I ate half my sandwich at a business lunch today, but it was just as much a meal to me as a human limb is to a shark.
If anything, “mistaken identity” blatantly disregards the White shark’s finely tuned perceptive faculties (e.g., lateral lines, ampullae of lorenzini, sound, smell and, of course, taste). Surely no self-described “expert” on White sharks can credibly contend that known man-eating sharks cannot properly identify a known tertiary prey item (human being) with a primary prey item (pinniped) after “mouthing” and/or biting into our unmistakably soft frames. I have no doubt that all sharks- if not merely all of the known man-eating sharks- can readily identify our electro-magnetic and/or auditory cues and easily differentiate between them.
To postulate otherwise would disregard Darwin’s “experience” and understanding of Natural Selection (e.g., Natural Selection supports the retention of favorable traits and destroys those which are injurious to the species). What a remarkably injurious trait would “mistaken identity” be.
In short, Chris Fallows paddle boards with sharks < Darwin's "Origin of Species".
In other words, I'm not going to cast aside Darwin's experience and understanding of the natural world for someone whose "experience" seemingly entails hauling a seal cut out around the bay for the tourists' thrill and pecuniary profit that arises thereto. I'm really glad he found a great niche and supports shark conservation. But I'm not going to uncritically adopt faulty views because groupthink says so.
Instead of asking people like me to "study" the creatures more, you might implore someone you deem highly knowledgeable to explain the sociobiology of these creatures to me on this thread. It shouldn't take very long to write something off the top of their head. Maybe they can start by reconciling the counter-intuitive premise of an opportunistic, generalist feeder making a "mistake" by realizing a meal from a seafaring creature that has been sharing its ecosystem for at least 2.2mm years.
After all, there is physical evidence of Homo erectus rafting around and sharing the White/Tiger/Bull/Oceanic Whitetip shark's domain for at least that long. Unlike "mistaken identity", the Science of our own evolution and migrations out of Africa is proven- as is the fact that Bull sharks inhabited every major waterway that sustained the first major civilizations after the Neolithic revolution- and many that nonetheless sustained even earlier cultures (e.g., Zambezi. The "revised" understanding of sharks turns what Science already knows on its head. I see no good in this, K.
Based on the scientific data, I would even challenge the notion that the ocean is exclusively "the shark's" territory any more than rivers belong exclusively to fish and not to Tigers.
But that's just me.
Take care.
"We pay/ a high price for being intelligent. The truth hurts." – Euripides (413 B.C.)
Just wondering… is anyone here qualified to debate “HOW TO SWIM WITH THE SHARKS AND NOT BE EATEN ALIVE” (à la “Bernie” Madoff or similar)! If the same energy and “intelligence” displayed here were applied it would probably produce some interesting theories and arguments! I certainly think that more people loose thier lives and livihoods to such man-eating shark activity each year than the sharks being hotly debated here.. and at least we are supposed to have laws that control such sharks. Who knows, we may even end up with a definative position on at least one breed of shark!
“After the event, even the fool is wise.” – Viscount Simonds
HOW TO SWIM WITH THE SHARKS AND NOT BE EATEN ALIVE
From my point of view, the shark will mostly attack you by surprise so there isn’t much to do to avoid an attack apart of taking care of the conditions that favor sharks encounters. but even with that, your best bet remains to not enter the water.
But if you’re lucky enough to spot the shark circling around you*, then you might avoid an attack. Dont do a prey behavior, just stay cool and if the shark comes to close, hit it but dont run away like crazy. This is simple to say and it obviously requires balls of steel..
Also I might be completely wrong
, it’s just an assumption I thought when I watched some vids about “Micheal Rutzen” ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTVMdzDFf4g ).
it’s really hard to tell why the white shark comes so close, if he’s trying to bite or if he’s just being VERY curious ?
If the guy had a different behavior (like running away) instead of swiming toward the shark, maybe the shark would bite him ? Who knows…
*I’m not sure why you could spot a shark circling you ? If it happens, maybe it means the shark is just curious…nothing more..
As if he was really hungry, then I believe he would have done a much more sneaky approach..?
I tell you what, I’m disgusted that no one is pressuring the Seychelle’s govt. for what they have done. They have blood on their hands for ignoring the first attack and brushing it under the carpet. You so called intellectuals are happy to debate, at nauseum, the science of the attacks but lets move away from science and get to the politics.
The Govt. were primarily concerned with money and protecting the image of the Seychelles. This poor man died because of their negligence and greed. I agree with Margaret earlier…somebody has to e held to account. Now the Govt. are trying to concoct another story that the Shark was a Great White….absolute nonsense. They like cooler waters and no way are they in the Seychelles. The Govt are happy to say it is a Great White because it suits their agenda that it was a rogue shark. It’s disgusting what they have done and still are doing…perhaps we need to debate the real issues here and not the science behind shark attacks
That’s what happens when you leave a bunch of uneducated idiots in charge of the Country I’m afraid…no surprises really. Corrupt 3rd World country…shock, horror
@drudown
Interesting! From a Darwinist theoretical point of view your arguments make sense. Given your obvious experience and expertise on the subject what is your honest opinion on the following:
*What species do you think it was? (suggestions have been made but nothing seems to be confirmed)
*Do you think it might have been the same shark on both occasions or not?
*Are there any feasible explanative models (many have been suggested: see Charles Savy, JD and also myself above) that would explain why the shark/s should be there and attack so close to shore? Me knowingly there has never been an attack like these ones before in the Seychelles (previous recorded attacks in the Seychelles involved fishermen fishing and or took place on the open sea) and certainly not at Anse Lazio.
*Are there any ‘micro-measures’ (ie not involving big issues such as stopping over-fishing etc. which obviously would be on the long term wish list) that can be taken to minimise the risk of future attacks? Staying out of the water is the obvious one but … you know what I mean, not very realistic;-)
Guess I am asking for too much as there are no definite answers, but I am looking for realistic guidelines and realise that risks will remain. There are never any guarantees.
@Kate and Simon: we are not just having a “debate, at nauseum, the science of the attacks”. We are actually trying to make sense out of two tragic incidents. Of course we can waste our efforts putting blame on this or that person or institution (but it wasn’t the ministry of tourism that was in the water on those days). But what will that achieve? It certainly won’t turn back the clock and quoting drudown quoting Viscount Simonds: “After the event, even the fool is wise.”
Mats
@David Savy- Any news from Charles?
@Mats
My first thought was that it was an Oceanic Whitetip or a Tiger shark- particularly the former, after the spate of recent attacks in the Red Sea. Reduced to its essence, my sense was that the attacks in the Red Sea continued because the Oceanic Whitetips deemed the opportunity to be ongoing, e.g., it was not unlike a maritime disaster- a predictable flow of human prey. Notably, the attacks didn’t migrate elsewhere in the Red Sea. It was one specific area, as was the case here in the Seychelles.
Also, Oceanic Whitetips are smaller and more stealth. People tend to notice the massive girth of even a teenage White shark. Despite their relatively diminuitive size, Oceanic Whitetips can saw off limbs like nobody’s business. They are also very fast.
The micro-measure I would recommend is closing that particular area for several weeks. If it is, in fact, Oceanic Whitetips- they might leave. But all this is guesswork. Who the heck really can say?
Just this: all the man-eating sharks that could be implicated (White/Bull/Tiger/Oceanic Whitetip) are highly adaptable and opportunistic. Sure, just as Oceanic Whitetips “prefer” deeper water, so too, do White sharks “prefer” more temperate waters. But when more dominant sharks (of each respective and/or competing species) control more desirable hunting grounds, juvenile and/or less dominant sharks will look elsewhere for sustenance.
As I see the world, that is when people get attacked. A very hungry shark swims by and the victim is in the wrong place at the wrong time. It isn’t a function of, say, “people were dumping sheep carcasses in the nearby inlet and the sharks got confused and attacked a person.” The shark(s) that attacked those people had no aversion to human flesh.
Then again, I don’t think sharks would. Humans share, what, 98.9% of our DNA with Chimps and almost as much with monkeys- and predators of all kinds seem content to eat monkeys and apes. Our genes can’t be coded to produce demonstrably different flesh and bones and, therefore, taste.
As an aside, the misfortune of a shark attack comes with having a body. Without a body, how could such a misfortune ensue? Why curse at Heaven and Earth, much less the Seychelles government? I don’t follow the logic of how they are responsible here. Maybe they should have posted warnings, ok. But who doesn’t know sharks live in the ocean? The government isn’t an insurer against such misfortune.
Finally, I find humorous that people dispense criticism of people discussing shark attacks on a website called Swim At Your Own Risk, specifically created for that purpose.
Duh.
Has anyone caught anything yet at Anse Lazio? Any clues? I don’t think it’s Great White…almost definitely Bull Shark as I’ve seen lots in those waters
@Jamal
No news as far as I know. Charles Savy, brother of David Savy above has been out there but nothing concrete on that front yet.
Bull Shark- interesting!: when and on what locations have you seen bull sharks.? Adults, juveniles?
Mats
I’m from Mauritus but spent a several months on Praslin working at Lemuria. My friend in cote d’or took me out game fishing regularly and we saw a massive bull shark just off cousine one day. This was 2009, but I imagine there are plenty still in those waters and they’re extremely aggressive. No way Great White…I would be 99% sure
@Jamal
I used to work on Cousin, the nature reserve that neighbours Cousine, and I’ve seen plenty of sharks there but they have all been small white tip reef sharks- no real danger there. Is the Cousine sighting the only one or were there more?
Hi Mat. That’s the only Bull Shark I saw there but my mate fishes regularly and says that he has seen a few before and after that. (Mostly juveniles.) He is on his boat every day. I can only say the experience was awe-inspiring. What an amazing creature it was
While I think a Bull shark is a possible culprit, and with no exculpatory tone impled, it seems most Bull shark attacks occur in murky water and, as a general proposition, most are in other waters. I would have suspected a more migratory species that ended up in the Seychelles, was unfamiliar with the ecosystem, hungry from a long migration and well, you know the rest.
Interesting account of the 1st attack:
http://sharkattackmonitor.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/update-to-fatal-shark-attack-at-anse-lazio-praslin-seychelles-on-1-august-2011/
Hmmm.
If the first attack was also a White shark, my sense is that people would have seen the shark at the surface, i.e., White sharks tend to attack and feed at the surface [http://sharkattackmonitor.wordpress.com/ ]. Oceanic Whitetips, Tiger and Bull sharks, however, tend to pull their victims down.
I’m no expert but I would be more inclined to believe it was a Bull Shark or possibly a White tip. Anse Lazio certainly ain’t got murky waters, it’s beautiful and clear. However a Bull Shark is not fussy, believe me they will attack anywhere if it’s hungry.
I still do not see how a Great White could have veered so far up the Indian Ocean to Praslin however. I imagine the Seychelles Govt. would like us to believe it was a Great White, it would ease the pressure on them. If I was a betting man I would rate the possible culprits in this order of likelihood
1. Bullshark. 2. Oceanic Whitetip. 3. Tiger Shark. 4. Great White
‘Congratulations to the Seychelles Authority?’ I rather think the word should be ‘condemnation’ …… one French tourist dies in horrific circumstances and a boat propeller is blamed? And now, a second tourist has met with the same fate. This is truly dreadful and a total disregard for life by the ‘Authorities’ ….. stuff the Tourist industry. How many more people are going to die before something is done about the ‘dumping of waste’ into the ocean which, clearly, attracts the shark. It isn’t the fault of the animal involved ….. humans are to blame.
“How many more people are going to die before something is done about the ‘dumping of waste’ into the ocean which, clearly, attracts the shark.”
Objection, Your Honor.
Calls for speculation, assumes facts not in evidence.
Thought that might be your comment drudown
Seen this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030531/Could-really-shark-killed-British-honeymooner-Seychelles.html
Lots of contradictory reports, I stand by comment that it is definitely not a Great White
Yeah- many bids: Great White, Bull Shark and Tiger Shark: we probably never will know for sure.
Almost definitely a tiger shark according to my friend.
leave the people who has lost their lives rest in peace unless their family gives permission for anyone in the world to make any such comment as being published. It would be most respectful.Be more understading to try and find solution for a problem that can happen anywhere in the world.put positive ideas together not negatives.
As we know anywhere in the world there are several animals that it is in their nature to attack anything that comes in their way while they are hungry, being attacked themselves,feeling insecure with other presence and many other reasons and its obvious that in the ocean its the same and particularly when something happened like a human attack in some places that is not usually happened its good for everyone to feel concerned and try to look for solutions,instead for making it become a horror film why not give sincerely opinions of truth cause there are too many bad jokes and many people don,t understand what everyone is writing and what is lies or truth .It’s true that attack is anywhere the least expected but if there are expert dealing with it let them do their jobs it should be under their responsibility to deal with problems that they have experienced in.
@annonymus (sic.)
just put a sock in it and move along
Just as day follows night it was predicted just what’d happen here, ‘quint’ and the local ‘big game’ hunters have embarked upon a mind boggingly intricate plan to catch this evil ‘killer’ of a fish.
The plan ?.. Catch as many sharks as you can until you stumble, haphazardly, upon one that ‘looks’ like it could be the one. Marvellous, the ingenuity of civilized man.
Or is that,, night follows day ? mmmm, I’ve got an headache.
Are the people that caught the Tiger sharks without human remains the “experts”?
(cricket, cricket)
the people who caught the shark was fisherman,so expert will do the rest everyone is trying to help in their own way
@annonymous
Now I am really confused:
“leave the people who has lost their lives rest in peace unless their family gives permission for anyone in the world to make any such comment as being published.”
What comments? Has anyone offended and if so how? Please be a bit more specific.
“Be more understading to try and find solution for a problem that can happen anywhere in the world.put positive ideas together not negatives.”
Apart from at least trying to find out details around the incidents isn’t that what we are doing?
“instead for making it become a horror film why not give sincerely opinions of truth cause there are too many bad jokes and many people don,t understand what everyone is writing and what is lies or truth”
hmmm: horror film, bad jokes- are we reading the same texts?
“if there are expert dealing with it let them do their jobs it should be under their responsibility to deal with problems that they have experienced in.”
I don’t think there is ONE expert out there, and I certainly don’t think that if that was the case he or she would be in the Seychelles right now. In my experience, science makes advances because many experts discuss things and question each other (which in turn may lead them to question their own ideas- a prerequisite for progress).
I’ve pretty much tried to keep up with this, and to be fair sharks fascinate me, in a respectful way, I have no desire to harm them, or even study them, but I acknowledge in some ways it’s necessary.
It’s good that folk can discuss these things. I have opinions, but they’re not ‘rigid’, I’ve learnt so much from this forum and found that they’re are those who to some extent are very much on my ‘wavelength’, which is good, I think.
The problem with ‘typed’ text is that it’s so easy to ‘write’ something or ‘read’ something and take it all out of context, sometimes it’s the spoken word that actually says so much more than a million ‘typed’ words, I hope that makes sense.
Experts ?,, I love that scene from the film ‘Shawshank Redemption’, wheres ‘Red’ is discussing his parole with the prison officials and is asked if he’s ‘ reabilitated’, I won’t bore you with it, but try and watch that scene, it depicts how even though two people might understand the definition of a particular word, but also how that same word is different , applicably.
Anyways, I know what I mean, thats a start.
I thank Drudown and Mats, for some intelligent input.
The killing passion of man-eating sharks is not fixed like a tree
but flows violently
like the wind through the leaves
A harbinger of untimely end.
The sharks attack hero, father, mother and friend.
a current invisible
the Sirens believe
as Fate presses down
like a fin through the surface
without the slightest reprieve
for nothing, not the most sincere declaration of faith in “mistaken identity”
is the brass of true scientific fidelity
a ruthless ecological niche unimaginable
knowing no true emotional extravagances
no feelings of empathy at all
pilot fish swarm for opportunity
the beat of the tail
and an implicit harmony
…white doves scatter inside of the cage…
where, where…
is that ocean where the Soul is released back into its origin,
inside of the blood:
where can we leave our former life’s clutter behind
the shark’s
motive?
understood.
inside the foreign self, irretrievable
as teeth penetrate the depths of their jagged edge,
inconceivable
now suddenly awakened,
so this prey may endure like a timeless statue:
we are taken
by an speed undone of passionate rapture.
all this with the shark’s power:
your flesh
I capture.
I have just come back from praslin island and met people out there who swam in anse lazio beach the day before the second attack.To my knowledge there have been over 40 sharks killed since and i have seen a 3 metre tiger shark hanging upside down.To my knowledge they still have not caught the culpirt,but it did not stop me from swimming in the beaches of praslin
andunstar
Now that the shock is over, maybe it is time to contemplate on some of the sad realities of what is happenning in our ocean, and that the authorities take the necessary actions to ensure the survival of the biodiversity which is threatened by uncontrolled
and illigal shark fishing activities in our coastal waters (I have the proof and presented to the SFA Years ago!). Did anyone consider that smaller sharks are an important food source for larger sharks and that overfishing of sharks on the Seychelles bank may result in a higher number of large sharks comming inshore to feed if they find insufficient foodsource in deeper water. ?? The depates can be endless, and common sense rather rare. While the fins are still a valuable commodity,
even any attempts to have legislation to protect sharks can be twarted, especially after such an incidents. It’s a case of double Tragedy
If anyone wants to contact me in view of attempting resolving the real issues at hand, you can contact me on kingbmbo@seychelles.net
The two accidents of August 2011 showed the Seychelles authorities blundering over and over again: they did not properly warn tourists about the first shark attack on Nicolas Virolle, trying to cover it up. Then after the second attack on Ian Redmond, they declared war on the ‘rogue shark’.
I have no problem with them keeping their mask on for the media, but they should really look into protecting the sharks, and ensuring that the chances of shark attacks are diminished by controlling fishing and waste disposal in the coastal waters. Once they do that, they should let tourists know what the risks are of getting into the water.